JULIA KWASNIAK: According to Anda Rottenberg, pop culture is...

ANDA ROTTENBERG: I don’t know that much about pop culture... To tell the truth, I don’t know the first thing about it. I understand pop culture rather intuitively, and the definition changes all the time. I am sure, however, that pop culture is always connected with what interacts best with our society. It refers to certain quasi-cultural activities that are yet to be recognised as elements of culture and are not necessarily pursued by professional community organisers or creators. I also associate pop culture with something that is born on the street and is connected with a very specific way of perceiving the iconosphere. It is a set of factors that emerge at the junction of professional culture and activities undertaken by subcultures, especially the subculture of teenagers, who have a strong need to stand out.

 

JK: What value does the relationship between the street and art bring?

I think the osmosis, which brings with it something fresh and new, is the most precious. I have a feeling that today no art can be created without drawing on pop culture. Of course it does happen, especially in film, for instance in the White Ribbon, which is free of references to popculturism, but I am not sure whether such a movie could ever have been made if pop culture did not exist at all. What I mean is its courage in portraying the relationships between people, the drastic morals concealed under a thin layer of what is appropriate. Pop culture reveals the needs of various social groups, also the need to express one’s traumas. It provides a context in which it is easier to make a film such as the White Ribbon. It would have been very hard if we were still bound by norms that mask social hypocrisy.

 

KATARZYNA WAS: High art finds inspiration in what is popular. Can this process be reversed?

First we need to be very clear about what high art is. Is this a type of art that meets certain axiological conditions? But all art does... Therefore an artefact that has been created within the limits of pop culture and meets the axiological criteria also becomes a piece of high art. Professional art constantly draws on pop culture. This mechanism is not, however, reversible. In other words, I cannot imagine a young people’s pop band that would take a theme from Penderecki. Of course they could do that but then they would no longer be speaking in their ‘own voice’.

 

JK: Pop culture is omnipresent and widely expanding. Do you see it as an opportunity to reach a wider audience or rather a trap in which we can lose ourselves axiologically?

It is difficult to talk about opportunities or risks related to the impact of pop culture on art. Today we are immersed in global reality, we live in a global commune, we talk in acronyms. Pop culture also has its own codes. In fact this mechanism is quite natural. The borders between genres and disciplines of art are fluid. Dorota Maslowska entered the canon of Polish literature with the street slang White and Red and the hip-hop Paw krolowej. She is definitely a true born talent; but we also know where her inspirations come from. Everything depends on the author and the quality of their work. Ever since graffiti painter Banksy started working on commission and paint on museum walls, it is difficult to draw the line between high art and pop culture in any definite way. A professional artist can create such a dud that it is hard to look at it and an amateur can paint something truly valuable.

 

KW: In Poland, art is still regarded as something hermetic. Maybe the curator should concentrate mainly on making art more accessible to wider audiences. On the other hand, should art actually be presented in a way that suits popular tastes?

The role of the curator consists in making certain discoveries. About ninety percent of curatorial projects today are presented in the public space. Various international art events have long since left the walls of museums and galleries. They now take place in a negotiable area of blurred borders. The audience interacts with works of art and is thus incorporated in them or becomes a part of the artistic project itself. Maybe this is the way to make art more accessible. Unfortunately, we are still burdened with the heritage of traditional education that views works of art as unchangeable, external, fully autonomous and completely different than the reality. Art is expected to be artificial, out of all commonality, also in terms of substance. Therefore, when dealing with a piece that is similar to reality or constructed from its elements, it is difficult to perceive it as art. Even Nowosielski’s still lives with red pots painted in the 1950s failed to change this way of thinking. I do not know how many people actually realised that the images asked about the existence of God.

 

JK: Maybe it is because we do not have a programme that would prepare people to experience art, as you have been saying for many years now?

Poland has a 20-year gap in educating people towards art. This type of education was withdrawn from schools. Sometimes, in secondary schools, it was replaced with history of art, a return to Michelangelo and the most popular understanding of art. In the case of younger children, there is hardly anything more damaging than the ‘drawing teacher’, proficient in destroying the imagination of every child and reducing everything to linear perspective, ability to use basic colours and an almost photographic reflection of reality. Academies of fine arts also block the imagination of their students. It is no secret that in Poland you become an artist despite your academy degree, not thanks to it... Upon graduation you are merely an artisan, some who is reasonably good at using tools. Only a small number of academy professors inspire the imagination of their students and encourage them to explore what has yet to be explored and to speak in their own voice.

 

JK: Education constitutes one of the most important tasks of the modern museum. To what extent may the instruments of pop culture assist the institution in this challenge? MOCAK’s most popular workshop was devoted to street art. It got huge media coverage.

Cultural institutions should definitely profit from pop cultural tools if only they help people to free themselves from the common, fossilised notions. People in Poland are wary of art, especially when it comes to contemporary art. They fear that the artist and the curator want to humiliate or cheat them. I see a dustbin and no one will tell me that it is art; that is the popular thinking. The educator’s role consists in presenting a situation in which this dustbin can become a work of art. In the museum, you need to work with the audience, and this effort does bring results with time.

 

KW: The American television broadcasts a show called Work of Art; like an X Factor with artists. The jury includes well-known critics and curators. Would such a project be viable in Poland?

The Polish media managers probably think that nobody would watch such a show. They think in stereotypes; they are convinced that the only thing people want to watch in prime time is TV series. There is no space for experimenting, for financial reasons. If one station has a show on, the other one will also broadcast one to avoid losing audience. Each drop triggers a financial loss, even if it is only temporary and could be made up for. The ratings reign. What counts the most is money, not mission. It may be that the larger part of the audience also looks for entertainment and a way to experience surrogate emotions, not so much to broaden their knowledge.

 

KW: Art in Poland is mostly discussed in the context of scandals and auction records. This also distorts its reception.

Do people in Poland even mention the fact that we are doing well? That we have succeeded in anything? The media thrives on failure. And just like pop culture, it enters your home uninvited. This is a self-regulating system and it is extremely difficult to get out there with some true values. I remember the time when, still in Zacheta, I was criticised for Kasia Kozyra, for each of her exhibitions. Some time had to pass before the ‘terrible Kozyra’ received an award at the Venice Biennale and turned into ‘our Kasia’. But the absurdities did not end there, just look what happened with Artur Zmijewski’s Game of Tag in Berlin. When it comes to contemporary art, Poland still has a lot of homework to do.

 

JK: On the other hand, it seems that art and collecting are becoming fashionable in Poland.

Of course, this is already happening. The first generation of businesspeople started out by selling goods on the streets and then moved to auctions to invest in Wierusz-Kowalski. The next generations however, the ones that got to travel, are more open to new ideas. Today a lot of representatives of the so-called or young business know the names of young artists. The journey towards social recognition was much longer for Miroslaw Balka than, for instance, for Wilhelm Sasnal or Bartek Materka. Young artists can now become famous virtually overnight.

 

KW: Your presence in the media has helped shape social awareness with regard to art. In a way, you have become the ‘face of contemporary art’ in Poland. Journalists always seek your opinion when something important happens in the world of art.

It so happened that I was the one to take on this first shock wave resulting from the naive notion of democracy. Maybe this is why the so-called ordinary viewer indentifies me with the scandals that in reality I did not provoke. But I believe it is all in the past now, that the situation is calming down and moving towards a natural balance between more art-oriented audiences and the ones that are less interested in this topic.

 

KW: By publishing an autobiography, Prosze bardzo, you have shown yourself to be not only an art curator and critic but first of all a woman of flesh and bone. After the release, you appeared in women’s media and on the covers of magazines. Do you feel like a celebrity?

Of course not! Let’s stick to the definition: a celebrity is someone who is famous for being famous. I would not like to think that about myself. I work hard and sometimes the results of my efforts are discussed in the media.

 

JK: You have your own Facebook account. A fanpage will most probably be created in a short while. Who knows, maybe one day ‘Anda’s style’ will become fashion... You have become an element of pop culture, there is no doubting it. How do you feel about it?

The Facebook account was an accident but it did help me to find some people that I had lost contact with throughout the years. But I am not an active member of any group. And if in my age I can answer some pop cultural needs then I am happy to do so. It is a proof that I did well when I refused to accept compromise.

Anda Rottenberg (born 1944) – art historian, critic, curator. In 1986, she opened one of the first independent art foundations in Poland, Egit. Between 1993 and 2001 director of the ‘Zacheta’ National Gallery of Art in Warsaw. President of the Institute of Art Promotion Foundation since 1998. Programming director and president of the Programming Council of the Museum of Modern Art in Warsaw until 2007. Member of AICA, CIMAM, IKT. Curator of many exhibitions in Poland and abroad. Author of books Sztuka w Polsce 1945-200, Przeciag. Teksty o sztuce polskiej lat 80., an autobiography Prosze bardzo and various theoretical texts.